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Talk:Invention Origin Enhancement Sets/Archive 1
Page direction Just to let people know where I'm going with this page. The intention is to shift what colors mean on the enhancement list tables. (Not the bonus tables) Currently the only things that colors mena on those lists is Proc and Globals. I've already shifted Proc to text labels, and will do the same with Globals. The intention is to then start adding the new color templates I recently created, , , , , and . The names should give a hint as to their intent. But just in case it is not, the intent is to eventually color each IO to show it's origin and pool. - Sister Leortha 10:15, 10 April 2007 (PDT) * Can I suggest a Green / Blue / Orange / Red color system instead for PoolA/PoolB/PoolC/PoolD to better indicate difficulty of obtaining the enhancement? -- Resonance 17:33, 10 April 2007 (PDT) ::Orange was selected for Pool A because that will actually eventually be the Pool A Rares, and matches the color of the Rares title. As contrasted to Yellow for Uncommons, which will evntually get labeled that or another separate color (Splitting Pool A into two colors for Uncommons and Rares). Then I selected other colors for the B, C, & D pools. You idea has possibilities, though I would debate that there is much difficulty difference in pools C & D, TFs vs Trials. That all said, the colors are set up very easily to be updated, since they are defined in templates. So we can easily enough play around with the selected colors if we want. We just need to remember to also update the article header where it describes what the colors mean. :: On a different note, I'm still nto happy with how Procs, Globals, and Uniques are being labeled. I had a thought, but I need some assistance from someone with at least minimal artistic abilities (I have none, basically). I was wondering if someone could create me a set of three small icons for the three labels. When I say small, I mean small. I'm envisioning something that would sit in the current tables, in the places where I currently use "(Proc)", etc, without the icons forcing the field in the table to increase in size. Something that would be easily distinguishable for which of the three is being labeled. I'm thinking something like a white or black "P" on a green background, either a small circle or square, for Procs, G for Globals, and U for Unique. Or something along those lines. I would set up the icons to link directly to the details just like I currently have the text tags linked. Anyone want to give a shot at creating something like this? :: Finally, does anyone have a link to a list of the Uncommons? The boards talk about assuming all of them are in Pool A, which is fine, but I'm not finding a list of them. - Sister Leortha 08:20, 11 April 2007 (PDT) ::: Ok. I've marked all the Uncommons, since those can be seen in-game in the CH lists. Just took a bit of back and forth last night between P-Wiki and the Test server. ::: I've also, just now, updated the colors. Whether the different pools truely represent increasing difficulty to accquire, they do represent a progression, and so I have colored them in the familiar order of colors, starting with green for Pool A uncommons, and progressing through purple for Pool D. ::: Finally, I've seen no response to my request for icons above. It has likely been lost in the flood of recent edits. So I'll repost my request over on the forum where it'll hopefully get more visibility. - Sister Leortha 05:52, 12 April 2007 (PDT) Numbers for global bonuses for enhancement sets The actual numbers for the global bonuses of enhancement sets aren't included here. For example, the three-slotted Freebird set should give you +8% Regeneration and +1.5% Health. Is there a specific reason that these numbers were omitted, other than the initial release of this information did not include them? The data are currently available in the game. If it is deemed desirable to add it here, I would be happy to do so. : Page size, pure and simple. The numbers are over on the bonus page. When I split the original IO page appart, because it was itself becoming too huge, I made the descision to separate the two type of tables, because if I had kept them together, I would still have a gigantic page on my hands. That was the original logic, at least. - Sister Leortha 14:29, 19 April 2007 (PDT) : I see two options: put the numbers on the pages for the enhancement sets (where there is room, and people will want to see numbers there anyway when they search by set name), or have the numbers pop up as tooltips (which I have forgotten how to do in Wikitext; in HTML, it's ... ; the title property also works with other span-like tags, such as ). The best plan would be both. But putting them out front would make this page look like the stock market listings in the newspaper. --Lin Chiao Feng 14:47, 19 April 2007 (PDT) Working sample for new Pool drop icons Sample above that I will start tweaking for using icons instead of colors for flagging different drop pools. Ok. Here's a first sampling. I don't have the crosshair icons yet, so I just used BoreSight for uncommons. I've placed nothing for rares yet. That would be the Orange Crosshair (Or black on orange), when we get one. I like the Pool B, C, and D effects, using familiar badge icons. They look recognizable enough at that size for the needed purpose, IMHO. The clue icon also works well for unknowns. The real changes will be made in the existing templates but for this test I have coded the icons all directly into the above table. - Sister Leortha 13:47, 23 April 2007 (PDT) : Ok. I've edited in both sets of sample crosshair icons. One pair of S-Kitty's, and the rest Lin's. Both look OK to me. Seeing them in place, does anyone else have preferences? And how does this way look in general? If we can decide on a crosshair set, and everything else looks good, then this can be put into place easily enough. - Sister Leortha 06:59, 24 April 2007 (PDT) :: I've added in S-Kitty's varients. The Calibrated Acuracy row has Uncommon 1, 2, and 3 in order. The Manticore rows have 1, 2, and 3 in order on each row. I don't want to cause any false rumors by labeling any of these fields against what we actually know, so for now I'm stuck with the few Pool A rares that we have shown. That's why I duplicated Manticore, to get more spots to show Pool A rare icons. I tried increasing the icon size. But even increasing to 25, the icons start to enlarge the field size, which is something I expressly do not want with this. The icons nedd to fit into the existing height fields. - Sister Leortha 07:58, 24 April 2007 (PDT) Crosshair Icon discussion :o.o this any use to you? I just threw them together.. in order of left to right: msg-green, uncommon-yellow, rare-orange/red, Admintalk-red, bin-blue. All the colors are taken strait from the games interface. The shapes themselves are modified heads-up displays and boresights. --Sleepy Kitty 15:31, 23 April 2007 (PDT) :: Could I request a variant of those? Black crosshair over the colored background? That was Lin Chiao Feng's suggestion over in the forum, and seeing the subtle difference between the yellow and orange in that image I agree with him that varying the background may make for a more distinctly identifiable difference in icons. I'm looking at yellow and orange for the colors, to match the in-game name colors for uncommons and rares. I think I like the bottom row bast, with the crosshair and box. So to summarize, would you mind making up a sample of black on yellow, and black on orange, bottom row pattern. That would be great. :) - Sister Leortha 15:59, 23 April 2007 (PDT) ::: o,o I'll see if I can, I have to run to the store for a bit, but if no one does before I get back, I'll see about tossing up an example. >.> and the bottom row are probably my fave to. Boresights sights aren't the the same on both sides btw... I had to correct some interesting messups by the devs when I was editing those. ^^;; --Sleepy Kitty 16:08, 23 April 2007 (PDT) : o.o kk, here's the new version! first two are the actual colors of the salvage, I included the other three just cause. Any changes needed still?--Sleepy Kitty 19:50, 23 April 2007 (PDT) :and 4 possible styles that these could be in.. . Lemmie know what appeals or could use work. --Sleepy Kitty 22:12, 23 April 2007 (PDT) I like the first two from each pic, which I think are the same two. They look good. So whenever you have the chance to make up the actual icons for those two... :) - Sister Leortha 04:20, 24 April 2007 (PDT) o,o yes, the first two, and top two are the same, just wanted to give you choices in style. here's the uncommon, and the rare. If you end up using them though, you'll probably want to adjust their category.. --Sleepy Kitty 06:00, 24 April 2007 (PDT) o_o hate to say it, but neither mine, nor Lin's graphics look quite right to me.. I went ahead and iconed two more of my test types, the auras, and the contained. o,o contained might be better in the end, but perhapses with a pixel or two of buffer space.. --Sleepy Kitty 07:18, 24 April 2007 (PDT) : went ahead and added 2 pixels of buffer so that the letters aren't right next to the image on the contained, they might also look better at 30px instead of 20. --Sleepy Kitty 07:37, 24 April 2007 (PDT) Here's what I had in mind: * Uncommon * Rare I'm just worried that the "HUD" type crosshair isn't going to scale down recognizably. Sorry for the delay; I just didn't have time on my Mac (which is my only machine with Photoshop) the past couple days. Hopefully, our colorblind folks can tell the brightnesses apart. If not, it's a simple change (I have the Photoshop files saved as layers). --Lin Chiao Feng 05:19, 24 April 2007 (PDT) : I can easily differentiate between these two (and the other variants of them): and . I cannot easily differentiate between these two: and ; I can tell that they are different if I look very closely, but in the table up above I can't really tell which one is which. -- Sekoia 12:55, 24 April 2007 (PDT) :: How about now? --Lin Chiao Feng 18:02, 24 April 2007 (PDT) ::: I can tell the new versions apart quite easily. Thanks! :) -- Sekoia 18:16, 24 April 2007 (PDT) toggles and click global effects When do you receive global bonuses for set IOs slotted into click and toggle powers? All the time? Or only when the power is active? --Colonel Jasmine 21:04, 28 April 2007 (PDT) : This was answered in the Dev Digest sometime in the last month, I just forgot what the number is. I think it's in the ballpark of 2 minutes for clicks, and on when the toggle is on for toggles, but don't quote me. I do know that it isn't the standard 10 seconds that a click power is considered to be "on" in the internals if the game. Best bet is to go look it up on the Dev Digest. --Lin Chiao Feng 21:18, 28 April 2007 (PDT) Props and a drop question This page alone has done so much to ease the whirling bewilderment of the i9 learning curve. (Is that a set, Whirling Bewilderment?) I want to thank everyone who has worked on it. Down to business, is more known about drops? IME both critters and mission completion CAN give a recipe drop, but it's not 100% on mission completion. Is the same true of TFs and trials? I had the impression the drop is guaranteed for TFs and trials. Is there any drop % information for critters and missions? --Colonel Jasmine 10:04, 3 May 2007 (EDT) : Missions is 10% chance for completion of every door mission. TFs and trials are 100%, unless you are subject to a timer. For enemy drops, it depends on the enemy. Percents are here. - Sister Leortha 13:51, 3 May 2007 (EDT) :: Also note that the respec trials, the rare recipe is a choice instead of the respec. Just did one of those myself a few minutes ago, expressly for the recipe. - Sister Leortha 13:52, 3 May 2007 (EDT) Bonus numbers directly in the tables Could I get some other opinions on the changes made this morning placing the bonus numbers directly into the bonus tables? IMHO this is a fairly bad idea. First, they are rather ugly there. They are a bit of information overload, IMHO. They make the colors for the set bonus levels somewhat redunsant. They will also be a nightmare to maintain if any major changes are made to the bonuses. If the base for, say, accuracy bonus is increased, then every acuracy bonus slot on the page will need to be checked and adjusted. So, overall, I think this is a bad idea. But I wanted some other opinions before I blanket reverted what someone definitely put some time and effort into. - Sister Leortha 10:50, 7 May 2007 (EDT) : The set bonus percentages are already included on each of the set pages, so the information is already available on the wiki. I think the page is already a bit overfilled with information. It's tough to figure out what should and shouldn't be included, but I think it should definitely be an overview--not a comprehensive guide to every bit of info we have. If we're going to include everything here, there's not much point in having the individual set pages. So I'd rather see the set bonus percentages omitted, personally. -- Sekoia 11:22, 7 May 2007 (EDT) I was very happy to see the numbers added - it saves me from having to flip through multiple pages to find them. The information may be available elsewhere on the wiki, but to find it I'd have to click to pages for each individual set - which means I can't easily have it all visible at once for comparison purposes. Drnuncheon 15:37, 7 May 2007 (EDT) : I prefer the percentages removed. I agree, with the percentages there, there's no need for the color code system, and I also agree that the information can be found elsewhere. There's even Categories for things like "improves recovery," and etc, to make it easier to look for what you need. Martavius 15:40, 7 May 2007 (EDT) : I miss the percentages. They were VERY useful in helping me make decisions without having to view multiple pages. Maverick X 09:34, 8 May 2007 (EDT) I seriously dislike the numbers for the unique IOs being removed from the tables. Being able to spot Steadfast protection's unique defense IO was helpful. My understanding is that the purpose of this page is to be helpful. Now that +3% Defense all bonus not only isn't listed on the chart, it isn't listed anywhere. Seanr451 16:18, 29 June 2007 (EDT) : I did that for consistency, so the names in the tables were exactly what you see in the consignment store window. That said, I am in the "percentages need to be somewhere" camp, but we haven't found a good solution just yet. Personally, I dislike this page's concept, because there is simply too much information this topic covers. I'd much rather see this info split onto different pages by set category (e.g. Melee Damage). All that said, the info on the global effects is not lost. If you click on the set name, you'll go to the set's page. From there, click on the enhancement, and you'll see the exact percentage effects under "Effects". Note that some effects are dependent on archetype and would be too complex to put in this table in any form. All that said, I would like to hear from you guys how you would use this information, because I think we may need some other pages that organize this information in a way that is more useful to you. --Lin Chiao Feng 17:19, 29 June 2007 (EDT) Time & Space the link to the Time & Space doesn't seem to work. It just goes to 'Time' The version of mediawiki on wikipedia deals with ampersands, but apparently this version doesn't. Not that I have a solution or anything. just thought people should know. Kznf 11:34, 8 May 2007 (EDT) : I just put a really ugly workaround in place for now and left a message on the forums letting Tony know about it. Thanks for the heads up! -- Sekoia 23:09, 8 May 2007 (EDT) Rearranging I just did a bunch of rearranging on the article. I didn't find the overall page organization really intuitive, and the names for some set types didn't match anything in-game. So I made them all match up, then grouped things a bit. If this isn't well-liked by others, feel free to undo. -- Sekoia 23:11, 8 May 2007 (EDT) +Stealth is not global Global icons should be limited to inventions that are actual global effects. Since stealth does not affect how other powers function, they should not be labeled as "global." This would be like saying the Concealment power Stealth is a "global effect power." The two are functionally exactly the same. Martavius 17:02, 10 May 2007 (EDT) : Except that it functions exactly like the other global. If in a click, it has a temp period of on time. If in a toggle, it's on while the toggle is on. And before it was blocked from passives, it functioned exactly the same in there. The +Regen, +recovery, +Run Speed, etc globals all function exactly the same. They add an effect to the character in general. The stealth ones function exactly the same. The classification has nothing to do with effecting how other powers function. +Regen, +recovery, +Run Speed, etc do not effect how other powers function. The distinction is that globals effect the character globally, rather than effecting just the specific power into which they are slotted. And stealth fully qualifies for this, IMHO. - Sister Leortha 07:17, 11 May 2007 (EDT) Order inside of table Blondeshell made an observation and posted about it on the forums, here's what the table looks like sorted by starting/ending level. --Konoko 17:23, 30 May 2007 (EDT) http://paragonwiki.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=455 :Set Bonuses | Bonesnap | | Immob Res | | +Health || || || |- | Pulverizing Fisticuffs | | Sleep Res | | + Positive/Negative Energy Def || || || |- | Bruising Blow | | + Recovery | | +Health || || || |- | Pounding Slugfest | | + Regeneration | | + Positive/Negative Energy Def | | + Damage || || |- | Smashing Haymaker | | Immob Res | | +Health | | + Smashing Def || || |- | Kinetic Combat | | Immob Res | | +Health | | + Smashing Def | | + Movement Speed || |- | Focused Smite | | Immob Res | | Confuse Res | | Debt Prot | | + Movement Speed || |- | Touch of Death | | Immob Res | | +Health | | + Damage | | Hold Res | | + Melee Def |- | Crushing Impact | | Immob Res | | +Health | | Accuracy | | - Recharge Time | | + Psionic Res |- | Mako's Bite | | Immob Res | | +Health | | + Damage | | Hold Res | | + Ranged Def |- |} I like this ordering better. It lets us visually see more patterns/info. Another option might be to use sortable tables, by adding "sortable" to the css class (ie, One thing I have seen is someone copied some of these tables to one of the set category pages. I don't know if it's still there, but I think it was a good idea, and there would be room for a level range table such as this. --Lin Chiao Feng 09:58, 1 June 2007 (EDT) Total Enhancement Value I've thought of something new to add to the tables, which might make it easier to compare enhancement sets at a glance: Adding the total enhancement value for each aspect enhanced to the tables. For example, Bonesnap has Acc/Dam, Dam/End and Acc/Rchg. Perhaps in the Bonesnap row have an entry for Acc/1.3 Dam/.65 End/.65 Rchg. Bruising Blow has Acc/Dam, Dam/End, Dam/Rchg. Bruising Blow's row would have Acc/1.95 Dam/.65 End/.65 Rchg This could make it easier to see which sets are more powerful in terms of raw primary enhancement value if fully slotted. Storyteller@fuse.net 22:44, 1 June 2007 (EDT) : That would be helpful, but I don't know where's the room for it -- those tables are awful big. If we do add it, we'd have to normalize the enhancement values since they vary per level. (Can't just pick a level because their ranges vary and overlap at different places.) I would recommend we use the multipliers (listed in Invention Origin Enhancement Scaling) instead of an actual percentage value. That would make Bonesnap Acc/1.25 Dam/0.625 End/0.625 Rcgh and Bruising Blow Acc/1.875 Dam/.625 End/.625 Rchg. That lets us compare them, and if we want a real value for a specific level, we'd have to multiply the multiplier by the numbers given in Invention Origin Enhancement Scaling's second table. -- Sekoia 11:59, 2 June 2007 (EDT) And another thing Now that we've got a (relatively) stable version of this page, can we get the recently uploaded icon images added to the table? Probably/preferrably in a small (pix=20) format? I know space is already at a premium, but this would help the more... visual players amongst us... Kalon 23:26, 1 July 2007 (EDT) :Not sure why we never did that. I just updated the Melee set table to see what it looks like. Might hit the rest of the sets this afternoon if I get a few free minutes. --Eabrace 12:35, 30 October 2007 (EDT)